Author Topic: NPS 2012 competing teams  (Read 18648 times)

jesster

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Re: NPS 2012 competing teams
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2012, 01:39:03 PM »
Jester, there  needs to be a motion to change the ACTUAL EXPLICIT language of the team eligibility rule. Based on the PRESENT RULE a team is eligible to attend NPS IF MEMBERS OF THE TEAM WERE CHOSEN REGARDLESS OF AGE, and other DISCRIMINATORY factors.

To limit NPS to adults 18 + or 21+ is not wrong. Certain theaters don't let kids below a certain age see CERTAIN movies and teens aren't allowed to buy cigarettes. BUT  OUR OFFICIAL RULE BOOK NEEDS TO STATE EXPLICITLY IN THE TEAM ELIGIBILITY SECTION THAT WE LEGALLY DISCRIMINATE BASED ON AGE.

I think that's the real source of the confusion about the issue.

The issue is that the vote DID happen

http://my.poetryslam.com/national-poetry-slam-age-limit

The problem is that vote was not communicate in our rule book

Jesse

AmyD

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Re: NPS 2012 competing teams
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2012, 03:24:55 PM »
Since we're being pedantic, the rulebook says that the slam or reading series needs to be open to all ages, not that the team itself needs to be.

But yes, it's unclear and should use an update.

Bro.Said

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Re: NPS 2012 competing teams
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2012, 05:56:14 PM »
Since we're being pedantic, the rulebook says that the slam or reading series needs to be open to all ages, not that the team itself needs to be.

But yes, it's unclear and should use an update.

Pedantic? The rule is named in the headline "Team Eligibility" , Amy.  The rule describes team eligibility for going to Nationals. The very first sentence says "teams must be chosen from an ongoing slam or reading series open to all ages.....". That's not pedantic. It's explicit. It's emphatic.

How is such a rule merely pedantic, when it effects the team eligibility process? On one page the rule book says Nationals is a 21+ event. Then in the "Team Eligibility " section it says your team trying to qualify for Nationals must chosen from a reading series open to all ages.   That's a contradiction.
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jesster

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Re: NPS 2012 competing teams
« Reply #63 on: July 26, 2012, 06:18:10 PM »
Since we're being pedantic, the rulebook says that the slam or reading series needs to be open to all ages, not that the team itself needs to be.

But yes, it's unclear and should use an update.

Pedantic? The rule is named in the headline "Team Eligibility" , Amy.  The rule describes team eligibility for going to Nationals. The very first sentence says "teams must be chosen from an ongoing slam or reading series open to all ages.....". That's not pedantic. It's explicit. It's emphatic.

How is such a rule merely pedantic, when it effects the team eligibility process? On one page the rule book says Nationals is a 21+ event. Then in the "Team Eligibility " section it says your team trying to qualify for Nationals must chosen from a reading series open to all ages.   That's a contradiction.

I agree. I think it's super confusing and unless you've been on the boards where this issue keeps getting mentioned there's no clear way to know about this.

I will be clarifying this language ASAP. I just wish I had caught this earlier and appreciate your help in identifying this issue. Again, I apologize.

-Jesse

AmyD

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Re: NPS 2012 competing teams
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2012, 09:18:01 AM »
I'm not trying to be obnoxious (too late!), but I thought there really was an intent around requiring a slam to be open to all ages in order to be NPS-eligible (though exceptions are pretty regularly granted). Is that covered over in venue certification instead?

jesster

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Re: NPS 2012 competing teams
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2012, 10:09:52 AM »
You're not being obnoxious. I think this is a really important discussion to have.

Here is what is posted about venue certification in the rulebook:

Quote from: Venue and Membership Info
Venue and Membership
Info
Registering/Certifiying Your Poetry Slam
(We want to have a Poetry Slam in our town)

Any regular Poetry Slam or Poetry Reading Series can become
a cooperating organization with PSi. New registration
costs $125 and can be accomplished over the internet
following the same steps outlined above for becoming an
individual member. Newly registered readings will be required
to fill out an Application for Certification and will
be asked to provide six pieces of “evidence” regarding the
nature of their event. The act of paying the fee REGISTERS
a venue as a cooperating organization. Registration
alone does not qualify a reading series to send a team or an
individual to a Poetry Slam, Inc. event.
To become eligible for inclusion in a Poetry Slam, Inc.
event, a reading series must become “Certified.” Certification
does not guarantee inclusion in a PSi competition, but
all teams and individuals at PSi events must come from
Certified Poetry Slams. Standards include:

1. The series must have conducted at least six events before
certification and its benefits can accrue.

2. The reading series must meet the requirements outlined
in the Equal Opportunity Statement.

3. The audience must average at least 30 members.

4. Any team or individual representing the Certified Poetry
Slam at a PSi event must be selected from an open
competition.

5. A Certified Poetry Slam need NOT be from the United
States to participate in a PSi event.

(Renewing Certification is only $50 prior to January 1,
$75 between January 1 and January 31. If a venue fails to
recertify by January 31 it must pay the new venue certification
fee of $125 and resubmit six pieces of evidence
to support their claim to meet the above standards. (In no
circumstance can a venue become certified for the current
PSi event after other slams have begun registering for it.)

And venues are required to agree to the Equal Opportunity Statement

Quote from: Equal Opportunity Statement of PSi
Equal Opportunity Statement of PSi
(adopted at SlamMasters’ meeting April 1, 2000)
As the SlamMaster of an event sanctioned and registered/certified
with Poetry Slam, Inc., the SlamMaster and/or his or her
assigns agree:

1. To provide a poetry event which is open to all people regardless
of race, class, gender, sexual orientation, national origin,
religion, ethnicity or lifestyle;


2. That Poetry Slam, Inc. will permit a registered venue to serve
a specific segment of the population (e.g. an all women’s Poetry
Slam) provided that the organizers demonstrate a need for such
an event within that community to PSi, and provided that the
municipality or geographical area in question is already represented
by a regular Poetry Slam series open to all participants.
Exceptions are also made for venues where local laws prohibit
minors, or physical characteristics of the building cannot accommodate
everyone. Demonstrable effort should be made to
provide an opportunity for any legally protected group to participate,
where no other local options to participate in a Poetry
Slam exist. It is understood that Poetry Slam events which are
open to all are given preference in selection for the National
Poetry Slam;

3. That the SlamMaster must provide team members and individuals
with a PSi handbook before participating in any sanctioned
PSi event, and encourage his/her members to read and
understand the rules and guidelines;

4. To create a fair and equitable Poetry Slam while providing
leadership which encourages, illuminates and supports established
standards of good-sportsmanship;

So, nowhere does it mention age in the requirements for registering a venue. Where it gets sticky is in the NPS Rules section, age suddenly gets snuck in

Quote from: PSi Rulebook - Page 37
Team Eligibility.
Teams must be chosen from an ongoing slam or reading series open to all
poets regardless of age, sex, race, ability, appearance, or sexual orientation.
All certified/registered venues are expected to uphold the Equal Opportunity
Statement
. Team members must be chosen through some form of competition;
how that competition is structured is up to the local venue or SlamMaster
so long as anyone who considers him/herself to be a part of the community
fielding the slam team has the competitive opportunity to join it.
Because Poetry Slam is growing, not all certified venues can necessarily be
included in the National Poetry Slam. To accommodate as many poets as possible,
from as diverse a geographic base as can be achieved, some certified
Poetry Slams will be encouraged to share an invitation to the National Poetry
Slam. A person participating at the NPS can only be a member of one and
only one team.

Honestly, the Team eligibility should match the Equal Opportunity Statement. There's no way we can force all slams to be all ages. Some of them are in bars. I will be fixing that inconsistency ASAP.

But nowhere in the rulebook is an age restriction called out. It's referenced in the important dates section

Quote from: Important Dates - NPS
NPS
NPS takes place in August
Registration opens (Certified Venues): 1st Monday in April
Registration opens (Registered Venues): 1st Monday in May
Registration closes: June 1
Last day to declare under 21 team at 18+ NPS: July 1
Last day to cancel and receive any refund for NPS: 45+ days out
=100% refund, 30+ days out = 50% refund, 29 days out =0% refund
of tournament fees but not memberships dues.

But other than that... nothing. I'll be fixing that as well.

-Jesse

karen_g

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Re: NPS 2012 competing teams
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2012, 11:21:53 AM »
Nice fine tooth illustration. As someone with a history of younger team members, I appreciate it.
Even with the inconsistency, though, so many of the events we have include bars, it's always something to mention, even to the entourage.Should be a fore-thought, not an afterthought in team formation.
nerak_g

amcehn

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Re: NPS 2012 competing teams
« Reply #67 on: July 27, 2012, 12:26:57 PM »
Team Inkwell just had Divine (Verb Kulture) drop from the team. We held a last chance Slam where Chris Key (Christopher Woodson) won and replaced her. Can you make updates to the roster of competing poets on the Arlington Inkwell Poetry Slam Team?

No, you must have the SlamMaster email me in order to make official changes. Sorry.
Abigail Ehn, Executive Director, PSi
115-1 Rock Ridge Cir
MAFB, ND 58704
(701) 727-6324
psimember@charter.net

hsampson

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Re: NPS 2012 competing teams
« Reply #68 on: July 27, 2012, 05:32:50 PM »
I'm not trying to be obnoxious (too late!), but I thought there really was an intent around requiring a slam to be open to all ages in order to be NPS-eligible (though exceptions are pretty regularly granted). Is that covered over in venue certification instead?
Amy is on the right track here.  There is no confusion in the wording.  The team must be selected from an ongoing reading series whose venue has the characteristics of
Quote
Teams must be chosen from an ongoing slam or reading series open to all poets regardless of age, sex, race, ability, appearance, or sexual orientation.
  The "series" is "open to all".  It does not say the team that comes out of that series may be all ages.  This is a general statement of which venues may send teams to NPS, ones that meet PSI certification.  It does not have anything to say about who may be on that team, nor about what the separate and specific requirements are for team members or individual poets at a specific event.
  For someone to compete in NPS, team members must be 21 plus, unless 18 plus is ok'ed by the host city because of the availability of 18 to 20 year old friendly venues.  This language was passed by slammasters in the spring meeting of 2005, I believe.
  For someone to compete in WOWPS, that poet must live life as a woman.   The fact that the venue qualifies to send a woman by being "open to all" doesn't mean they can send just anyone to this event.  That seems pretty clear.
  In like manner, you can't point to the language cited above about a venue being "open to all" and say the qualifications for team members for NPS are unclear.  They are not.  One statement refers to the operations of the slam venue, the other clearly states the restrictions/qualifications for team members.
     I understand pulling for your team members.  Glad to hear your poet is 18 years old, and is able to compete. 

Bro.Said

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Re: NPS 2012 competing teams
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2012, 07:20:38 PM »
I'm not trying to be obnoxious (too late!), but I thought there really was an intent around requiring a slam to be open to all ages in order to be NPS-eligible (though exceptions are pretty regularly granted). Is that covered over in venue certification instead?
Amy is on the right track here.  There is no confusion in the wording.  The team must be selected from an ongoing reading series whose venue has the characteristics of
Quote
Teams must be chosen from an ongoing slam or reading series open to all poets regardless of age, sex, race, ability, appearance, or sexual orientation.
  The "series" is "open to all".  It does not say the team that comes out of that series may be all ages.  This is a general statement of which venues may send teams to NPS, ones that meet PSI certification.  It does not have anything to say about who may be on that team, nor about what the separate and specific requirements are for team members or individual poets at a specific event.
  For someone to compete in NPS, team members must be 21 plus, unless 18 plus is ok'ed by the host city because of the availability of 18 to 20 year old friendly venues.  This language was passed by slammasters in the spring meeting of 2005, I believe.
  For someone to compete in WOWPS, that poet must live life as a woman.   The fact that the venue qualifies to send a woman by being "open to all" doesn't mean they can send just anyone to this event.  That seems pretty clear.
  In like manner, you can't point to the language cited above about a venue being "open to all" and say the qualifications for team members for NPS are unclear.  They are not.  One statement refers to the operations of the slam venue, the other clearly states the restrictions/qualifications for team members.
     I understand pulling for your team members.  Glad to hear your poet is 18 years old, and is able to compete.

C'mon Henry. Not my main , man, too! REALLY??? You really mean to tell me the present "Team Eligibility"means ONLY the reading series needs to be "open to all" NOT NPS???  Does that really make sense??? Teams have to be chosen from venues "open to all ages, races, genders,  - but NPS can discriminate??? That slope is slippery, my friends.
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jesster

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Re: NPS 2012 competing teams
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2012, 08:08:05 PM »
Team eligibility is covered in the most part by the Equal Opportunity Statement. The language is redundant, except for the introduction of all ages. This should've removed from the NPS rules section

Jesse

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Re: NPS 2012 competing teams
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2012, 01:51:16 AM »
It would seem to me that we need to take "age" out of "regardless of age, race, etc." since it's not mandatory that slams be all age events and that's the way it reads.

jesster

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Re: NPS 2012 competing teams
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2012, 01:54:20 AM »
It would seem to me that we need to take "age" out of "regardless of age, race, etc." since it's not mandatory that slams be all age events and that's the way it reads.

Dead. On.

The EOS has better language.

-Jesse

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Re: NPS 2012 competing teams
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2012, 05:20:52 PM »
I just read an email from Abbey that says my player (who assures me that she is 18, and I trust her WE'VE ALWAYS OPERATED ON THE HONOR SYSTEM AROUND HERE) has to show her i.d. before my team can register. Supposedly this is per the EC. 

I ask that thoughtful, serious minded people on the EC reconsider this. When we arrive in Charlotte and we're the ONLY team that has to have a member show id, that is an act of discrimination.

If PSI insurance doesn't cover minors, that insurance doesn't cover minors ON ALL TEAMS - not just a minor that could be on my team. I can't be the only team required to have one member show ID. EVERY TEAM MEMBER ON EVERY TEAM HAS TO SHOW ID.

Think about this.
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Re: NPS 2012 competing teams
« Reply #74 on: July 30, 2012, 06:35:02 AM »
Just for clarification's sake, votes on the 21+ issue were taking place in 2002. In 2004 this issue came to a head again.
I can't speak to when they actually made it into bylaws or rulebooks.